Ruthless efficiency vs Sporting Chance

[silverbirch]

Today I witnessed what I would call somewhat emotively the skull dragging of a carp to the net in seconds flat..

I like to fish as light as conditions allow i.e. in open, snag free water I am happy to fish 6lb hooklinks on venues that hold carp to 20lb..on suitabley balanced tackle it may take up to ten minutes to bring a fish to the net...but to me this part is the essence of the sporting challenge... its experienced within the duration of the fight, but if this becomes too prolonged does this adversely affect the fish and it's recovery (hopefully we all witness a beautiful creature in it's natural glory and then safely release it back into it's own world.)

I once played an 8lb Barbel on the River Severn in a match on a 18's and 1 1/2lb hooklink for 50 minutes..it went belly up in the keepnet and took a long time to nurse back to a full recovery.

Conversely, with big TC rods, 15lb line and 3oz+ leads (which I admit I have no experience of and I do understand a degree of subtlety can be applied in experienced hands) is it not more about just getting the fish into the net in a quick and ruthlessly efficient manner....possibley bullying the fish and causing potentially undue trauma/ mouth damage.

Is there grounds to say there is a position somewhere between the two that represents the best option from the fishes perspective?

Is there an ideal between ( generalising and polarising things a bit) bullying and over-playing that we should strive for?

In summer when oxygen levels are low is it bad form to play fish for too long?

Or away from snags is 'hit and haul' equally unjustified?

What does eveyone think?

[Blue]

Got to be honest Rick, IMO, I bet 80% of anglers don't even consider it when purchasing new gear. It's more to do with keeping up with the Jones's and looking the part than giving the fish a sporting chance.. This isn't me taking the moral high ground either, because I'm guilty of it myself...

This kind of falls back to the 'over gunned' thread, and as people say, the gear they own is bought to cover a wide variety of circumstances, rather than having a 'stalking' set up, a 'long range' set up and so on, people purchase gear based on the average fishing condition. So if this means using 3lb TC rods on a 1.5 acre farm pond with big pits, then so be it. Some people just can't afford to adapt to every situation (me included) thus rendering them 'over gunned' on small waters or 'under gunned' on large pits depending on their gear.

Is there an ideal between bullying and over-playing that we should strive for? Again, IMO I think this comes down to the gear that we own, past angling experience and also what sense of satisfaction you get from the whole process of landing a carp, from the initial hooking to the returning of the fish. There are anglers who enjoy the fight as much as the landing of the fish and the taking of the picture. However, there are anglers who couldn't care less how they get the fish in as long as it ends up in their arms in front of a camera, so they can get the picture sent of to the comics as quick a possible.

[Julian Grattidge]

Originally Posted by Blue

Got to be honest Rick, IMO, I bet 80% of anglers don't even consider it when purchasing new gear.

Think Blue’s nailed it really.

I think many coming into the sport assume that 3.5lb TC rods and 20lb line are essential to be able to cast and look the part on the bank. Of course in reality nothing could be further from the truth, but try telling that to a young kid who wants to punch a lead as far as Frank Warwick.

The key is in learning the craft. You would hope that as the newcomer learns the craft they would then realise that a 3.5lb tc rod is over the top for a small water, and who knows maybe scale down a touch – but I reckon those who do would be in the minority.

Likewise, and on my soapbox here, I think there are many out there who have little care about the fight and the tackle used to overcome the fish. The weight on the scales is all that’s important to some, oh, and of course, the trophy shot.

I always try to balance my tackle to the fish I’m targeting and the conditions I’m faced with, as the real Buzz for me is during the heat of the battle when it’s anybodies guess who’s got the upperhand, much the same as yourself I’m guessing SB. Last year I used 8lb or 10lb hooklinks for most of my floater fishing and lost very few fish, and on the bottom I rarely go above 12lb line, all usually matched to a rod with a 2.25lb TC Rod.

J

[kevw]

Personally think this is all down to experience. If like many on here you have evolved into carp fishing and played softer mouthed fish, say perch for example, on a match or ledger rod then you get a "feel" throughout the fight of how hard the fish is pulling. You know when to give line or bully a fish, and backwind or set the clutch accordingly, and balance this with the tackle and situation in hand. Relating to another thread I was shown by my father as a kid how to play a fish a long time ago.

If though an angler is new to angling and goes straight into carping, buys a set of stiff rods, and manages to catch a couple then he/she hasn't experienced any different, and probably hasn't been taught or shown what to do. I once watched someone with 1 3/4 rods trying to literally drag a good, angry fish into the net, the rod was almost at breaking point and no attempt was made to tire the fish, so it isn't just big rods but inexperienced anglers.

Regarding fishing to snags, too many put a bait too close to snags then leave the rods, and don't really give themselves or the fish a chance. Again down to experience, but unfortunately we often have to learn the hard way.

[Wooly]

Originally Posted by silverbirch

Today I witnessed what I would call somewhat emotively the skull dragging of a carp to the net in seconds flat..

I like to fish as light as conditions allow i.e. in open, snag free water I am happy to fish 6lb hooklinks on venues that hold carp to 20lb..on suitabley balanced tackle it may take up to ten minutes to bring a fish to the net...but to me this part is the essence of the sporting challenge... its experienced within the duration of the fight, but if this becomes too prolonged does this adversely affect the fish and it's recovery (hopefully we all witness a beautiful creature in it's natural glory and then safely release it back into it's own world.)

I once played an 8lb Barbel on the River Severn in a match on a 18's and 1 1/2lb hooklink for 50 minutes..it went belly up in the keepnet and took a long time to nurse back to a full recovery.

Conversely, with big TC rods, 15lb line and 3oz+ leads (which I admit I have no experience of and I do understand a degree of subtlety can be applied in experienced hands) is it not more about just getting the fish into the net in a quick and ruthlessly efficient manner....possibley bullying the fish and causing potentially undue trauma/ mouth damage.

Is there grounds to say there is a position somewhere between the two that represents the best option from the fishes perspective?

Is there an ideal between ( generalising and polarising things a bit) bullying and over-playing that we should strive for?

In summer when oxygen levels are low is it bad form to play fish for too long?

Or away from snags is 'hit and haul' equally unjustified?

What does eveyone think?

When I first started carp fishing I used 8 or even 6lb line fishing at Claydon Lakes in Buckinghamshire and Tiddenfoot Pit in Bedfordshire. Both these lakes at the time were weed and snag free. I landed loads of carp to just under 20lb and even managed some catfish to 25lb. I rarely lost fish and would like to think that I played fish well. With the change over the years though to weedier and weedier waters this all changed. It wasn't possible with these lines to apply enough force to land the fish in far too many cases.
I do not consider this to be giving the fish a fighting chance, I believe it to be wrong, even irresponsible, to let the fish escape with hooks in them trailing lines. I gradually stepped up the breaking strain of the line I used, but stuck with the 2.25 TC rods. The final straw was when fishing the GU canal in Milton Keynes. This wasn’t particularly snaggy, except for the overhanging trees on the far bank, but the fish made a mockery of any lines under 15lb. I now fish with the best quality 15lb line I can find. With this I never break off on a fish, I might get a cut off, but never a break off.
I view this as giving the fish a sporting chance. For me the sporting aspect is by making it far more difficult to get a pick up in the first place by using a thicker line rather than fishing with a lighter line which makes it easier to get a run, but, harder to land the fish.

To answer some of the points raised I would say that too long a fight is potentially more harmful than too short a fight. The barbel experience described details the risk quite well. A very long fight can dangerously stress a fish.

Last year I fished on Top Pool, fights with carp there tend to be short and hard. If the lake was weed free I would fish it with a much lighter line than I am currently using. Even if using the heavier line I now favour, I would take more time landing the fish than I took last year, but, given the weed conditions I play them quite hard. In my experience that is the correct method. If I found that that unduly damaged the fish I would not fish the lake at all. As quite a few have already said, it’s all about experience. The person described as skull dragging the fish to the net sounds inexperienced to me – what were your thoughts on his skill / experience level? Out of interest was he fishing a fairly open swim, or, was there any reason why he might have felt the need to over power the fish as described?

The subject of high test curve rods and large weights has been discussed on various threads on this forum. Under 80 metres I would always use my 2.25 rods. Fish size, snag conditions and sporting chance do not feature in this decision – only the range I wish to fish at. I think that most people think that all 3.5 Tc rods are the same. Nothing could be further from the truth. When fishing at longer range I use 3.5 TC Century NGs (when not pole vaulting, bashing brambles etc). These are expensive bits of kit at over £220, but in my opinion are worth every penny. I still remember the first carp I hooked on them – a 12lber in France on a method feeder at 100+ metres. As soon as I hooked the fish and started playing it a big grin appeared on my face, these were not the sticks I was worried I had brought, but, playing rods, the fight was superb. Despite the higher test curve I would not say that these rods allow me to bully fish more than the lower TC rods. My weapon of choice for snag fishing being the lower TC option. When in France fights often take more than 10 minutes. Again the experience factor kicks in. I have seen people try to force fish into the net resulting in the inevitable hook pull. I’ve played fish under my rod tip for several minutes until I have judged them right for the net – again the experience factor, get it right and loose few, get it wrong and loose loads. Too long a fight often resulting in the hook working its way out.

As a matter of interest, would you still put an 8lb barbel in a keep net, just for the glory of winning a section / match??

[Wire Tim]

Originally Posted by kevw

Personally think this is all down to experience. If like many on here you have evolved into carp fishing and played softer mouthed fish, say perch for example, on a match or ledger rod then you get a "feel" throughout the fight of how hard the fish is pulling. You know when to give line or bully a fish, and backwind or set the clutch accordingly, and balance this with the tackle and situation in hand. Relating to another thread I was shown by my father as a kid how to play a fish a long time ago.

exactly. For anyone who read the other threads, this links into my barbless debate. its all about background experience. I was lucky enough to fish a lake early the other day, and although the owners preference was to barbed, i pointed out the zero damage that occured during my playing of fish on barbless hooks. anyway, don't want to derail a thread, but ties in perfectly.

[silverbirch]

Just finished work and tired but have speed read the above...

Fish playing experience does seem to be the key here... or the lack of it. Irrespective of high/low TC or line strength...in the right hands and with an understanding of what the reels clutch/drag is for and the controlled use of the particular rods capabilities...there are, if the neccessary maturity is available, ways to apply just the pressure required, and no more, to keep the upper hand and dictate the pace of the fight but also show respect for the fish.

Test curves become irrelavant, if you point the rod at the fish and walk back up the bank...your arm can be used as a yielding/compensating factor as much as the curve of the rod..it's about feel....with experience come other tricks that disorientate the fish, such as burying the rod tip under water, so the direction of pull is changed to coming from below the fish (this often stops fish in their tracks and usually come up in the water at the same time, a good tip if you know the fish is heading for a snag on the deck) or switching the angle of sidestrain a couple of times in quick sucsession, or even rapidly tapping the rod butt can work.

In match fishing you often end up attached to big, unintended or at least unexpected fish such as that barbel whilst running a stick through for roach..your then left to deal with it..finesse fishing fools the big ones often and learning how to land them succesfully when encountered is certainly how I've developed my own fish playing skills over many years...

A further downside to the young man I witnessed hauling his fish to the net without the single slip of the fully locked up clutch, was watching a still green fish flapping around on the mat and proving a right handful during unhooking, weighing and the photo's..

[HAWTHORN]

There have been some very good points made in this thred but it seems that what Silverbirch witnessed was not down to a balance of tackle but lack of experiance, or just bad angling. This sort of thing would, IMHO happen with this sort of angler no matter what tackle you give him.

[Julian Grattidge]

Originally Posted by Wooly

I think that most people think that all 3.5 Tc rods are the same. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Yep, that’s a fair point Wooly.

Though I think part of the problem is that many newcomers to the sport often want a rod that can cast to the sky because they somehow think it is a better piece of kit, i.e; a 3lb TC rod is somehow better than a 2lb TC rod because it is capable of casting further – even if the biggest chuck it’s ever going to do is a 30 yard flick on a commercial fishery!

J

[kevw]

There may be an underlying issue in all this and personally I don't believe that carp anglers in general are receptive of newcomers on the bank and we do not go far enough to help newcomers become good, experienced anglers. We can be a secretive and unapproachable group of people. Maybe even intimidating at times
However carp angling as a business is certainly active in trying, and succeeding to get more people in the bank

Now before I get slated let me try and explain, you've got a day or a few days on the bank. Another angler turns up and does everything that you wouldn't and scuppers you're chances altogether. Do you go and pass on your experience of the water, give a few tips etc., or shake your head bemused and put it down to another Noddy

A few weeks earlier somone picks up a magazine in the supermarket, has done a bit of fishing in the past and fancies another go. He/she sees photos of the big names with loads of 30's etc., passing on tips like ****loads of bait, big pva bags, heavy leads, 120 yds, etc. etc. and gets interested. Next page is the latest deal from wherever offering starter deals, rod/reel/pod etc so off he/she goes and turns up next to you the following weekend on the bank armed with 10kg's of Dynamite bait, a few 3 oz leads and some pva bags

Now this newcomer is only lacking in experience, and may well develop into a very good angler. Conversely this may never happen and he/she will remain the Noddy that you never want to see on the bank again.

Maybe we could do more on the bank at times to help other anglers, out of interest Silverbirch did you pass on any tips on how to play a fish to the angler you saw? He may well have told you to **** off and would probably fall into the permanent bad angling Noddy, if he was keen to learn then he may well have thanked you for taking the time

[silverbirch]

To my shame I didn't although it was considered...it wasn't really practical being on the other bank and all..but even with a novice fishing with you it's difficult to impart an understanding of how to show the fish more respect...there is no short cut or replacement for moving up the ranks catching gradually larger fish over the years and developing the ability to feel your way through the fight..

Somewhat ironically said angler appeared to treat the hookhold with medicare!
Probably came as part of the tackle bundle

So the magazines do come up trumps sometimes. I see, I do..but some aspects just do not translate well from the page such as learning to play fish.

[Lee Clarke]

Efficiency or fighting chance I feel also comes into the preference of the individual angler...

Like some people that fish with kit all over the place (Smokey where's my phone?) whilst I am anally tidy (OCD)

As long as the fish does not suffer any undue harm, the it is I feel personal preference! As a constant pressure is always applied to some degree to the hook hold!

Myself, as Jules mentioned love the play and fight from the fish and was quite disappointed last week when a 20 just cruised in, tried to turn on me twice then fell to the net!
For me to have a 15lb'er take me all over the lake on the next take! I was equally chuffed at both captures - very please at when the scales went 20+ but also thrilled by the play of the double!

Now, on my other rods that I'm currently using, they are 3.5tc and I do aim to be fishing at distance with these!
I have personally found that I am more careful and playing fish longer than I did with my 2.75 tc's. Probably as I am conscious of the stiffer rod / hook pulls / less 'feeling'
Therefore resulting in more play / action as they are less forgiving and requiring more skill / 'craft' than before!