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07-03-2006, 12:57 AM
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Ultimate Rig? Transferred
Author Topic: Ultimate rig? (Read 224 times)
blue NMFF Regular Whilst watching the Korda underwater 5 DVD, Damien Clarke made a comment that made me think a bit. After watching carp mouth the rig, pick it up and drop it, waft the rigs with their pec's and completely ignore the rigs, he said that the perfect, super rig is definitely possible, it's just not been invented yet! I thought that was a brave thing to say. The last big revelation in rig design was the hair, ever since, as we all know, all rig design has been based around this concept. Nothing since has caused such a buzz in the carp world (or not that im aware of! ) Ive sat down with a pen and paper to try and design 'the' rig before, hooks here, boilies popping out and going there, beads and swivels doing this.... two sessions later, back on a the old 10 inch mono hair, because I'm confident using it! So what does everyone else think, could there possibly be 'the' rig to be designed, a rig that will fool the carp, hook them every time they pick up the hookbait??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- joephus NMFF Regular Yes and it does possibly excsist. There is one angler who has caught more 40s than anyone else by a long way. Doesnt make large of his captures and basically puts everyone else to shame in the big fish stakes. This down to his angling and also the fact that he has an awful lot of money and has developed amazingly efficent rigs. Isnt half the fun that they dont always get hooked anyway? Link to Post - Back to Top 213.121.151.194 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil highlander Global Moderator i can honestly say that i dont believe there could ever be an 'ultimate rig'. I dont see how any 1 rig could cover all possible scenarios. Ive been on the same style rigs for 5 years (stiff and combi's) obviously lengthening and shortening them to suit the occasion, I was of the thinking that id never need to change from these two styles but im now at a point where im unhappy with them in certain swims on my venue so im having a serious rethink as to how to change the presentation. Link to Post - Back to Top 62.255.32.11 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- blue NMFF Regular 3 Mar, 2006, 20:18, joephus wrote:This down to his angling and also the fact that he has an awful lot of money and has developed amazingly efficent rigs. I hear what your saying joephus, but i don't believe that being wealthy is the answer to creating the ultimate rig. If i won the lottery this Saturday, i doubt if could develop the ultimate rig! (unless it involves solid gold, diamond encrusted hooks or leads or something! ) Also, the number of forties this lad has caught is irrelevant, what is relevant is the fact that if he's using 'the' ultimate rig, he's hooking 'every' fish that's picking up his hookbait! That's what anglers want, be it single figure carp, 20's, 30's, 40's or 50's . The fact is, a lot of carp are getting away with it a lot of the time! This is what annoyed me when Damien Clarke made the comment about the 'ultimate rig'. Like what Phil said, how can any one rig cover all situations? I'm open minded about the whole rig thing, but to create the ultimate rig is to reinvent the hair in my mind. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lidoman NMFF Super Poster Got to agree with the highlander here...ultimate rig...no but there are things that you can definitely do to improve your *****s to pick ups rate...the line aligner is definitely one....using some sort of blow back mechanism is another, but I don't use rings for mine but shrink tubing as this is not prone to tangles and also helps to keep the bait in place on the cast. But as for the ultimate rig I have caught on that many different variations that sometimes I wonder if different rigs are just what works on the day so to speak as sometimes I have used rigs that are so different from the norm and caught that I just wonder if the fish do inspect them. I have seen korda part 1 and from this it does look like the fish do inspect rigs. I once used a stiff rig made from 35lb mono and had 15 runs in 24 hrs landing about 10 fish upto about 15.5lb...lost a few due to barbless hooks I think but changed after losing a couple. On another day i was fishing a new water and so spent about 2hrs plumbing around with my mate fishing from the same double swim. as i plumbed he sat there fishing about 15yrds away from me I then cast in a stiff linked pop up rig and had a 13lb 4oz common in the net within an hour after all my commotion with the marker incidentally my mate on bottom baits never had a sniff and I had another common of 19lb 6oz the next morning Sometimes a different rig seems to be the difference between success and failure...I don't agree with people that say rigs don't matter. Link to Post - Back to Top 80.5.160.6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- blue NMFF Regular 3 Mar, 2006, 22:08, lidoman wrote:ultimate rig...no but there are things that you can definitely do to improve your *****s Were talking rigs here lido......LOL Link to Post - Back to Top 80.47.135.187 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lidoman NMFF Super Poster I was waiting for that one LOL Link to Post - Back to Top 80.5.160.6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Julian Administrator Editor 3 Mar, 2006, 21:59, blue wrote:... i doubt if could develop the ultimate rig! (unless it involves solid gold, diamond encrusted hooks or leads or something! ) PMSL – “Pimp my Rig” Anyway, good topic, The main problem as I see it is that any rig, by it’s very nature, has got to do three things; attach a bait, attach a hook, and attach itself to the mainline. As such, there is always going to be a problem with the way that a carp inspects the bait; as no matter how it’s presented, it has to be anchored to the rig somehow. I know where Joe is coming from as I also know one or two anglers who seem to catch well wherever they go, fishing exactly the same approach/swim/bait/spots as others, so you would be led towards thinking set-up is the big difference. However, how much of this is down to the actual rig is hard to say. I’ve become of the firm belief that simple is often best. Most of my fishing is now done on the simplest rig you could find – a nine inch length of braid (no hair) with a worm on the end. The amount of times that it is sucked up at the first time of asking is unbelievable, and as it’s usually in a stalking scenario, I see most of the pick-ups and takes and I have to say that I think it’s the buoyancy of the hookbait that is key. I reckon the perfect rig is not so much about its hooking properties or anti-eject, etc, etc. It’s to do with the confidence with which the fish picks it up. With my worm rig it’s often the case that they really do have no idea that they’ve picked up the bait and so it’s often down to me to lift the rod and set the hook – at which point all hell breaks loose. I think this comes back the anchored theory. The norm nowadays is to fish big leads to try and hook the fish on the pick-up, whereas I’m the opposite. I will quite often freeline a bait, and there is no greater way to instil confidence in a fish that that. I’ve often had it where the fish has managed to miss picking up the bait out of nothing more than sheer clumsiness, and the braid has been blowing about all around them, but as there was no weight attached, it did not spook them in the slightest, they just keep blowing and sucking till eventually it gets sucked in. Amazing stuff to watch. Link to Post - Back to Top 86.142.70.143 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Northern_Monkey NMFF Super Poster I don't think there will every be a "ultimate" rig, purely because of the fact that you are dealing with wild creature, whose habits and feeding differs from lake to lake who'd want to use a super rig anyway, i'd be called catching then, not fishing in my opinion people don't look at how effective there rigs are going to be and simply fish a simple rig because everybody says "keep it simple". Although fine in theory i just think a bit more attention to detail pays off big style now i'm not talking about ultra complecated rigs here, but creating Line aligners etc in rigs makes a difference in my opinion you will catch carp on simple rigs, but maybe with a bit of thought i believe people would catch the same carp with maybe one or two thrown in the wouldn't have caught before Link to Post - Back to Top 81.106.182.223 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil highlander Global Moderator I think one of the most overlooked aspects of rig production is the actual variety of carp being targeted. Different strains have slightly different physical attributes, the main one concerning the rigs to me, is the positioning of the mouth. Some strains have a forward facing mouth where other strains have a more underslung mouth. Dinkelsbuehl strains have a down turned small circular mouth Ropsha have a downturned mouth Italian strains have a slightly forward facing mouth Aishgrund strains have a slightly blunt and often upturned mouth Leneys strain have a slightly forward facing downturned mouth The methods of feeding carp is also paramount to rig development..... some strains ( and often individuals) of carp really have to up-end to pick up the baits where other strains tend to feed levelled out........ Ive seen many fish feed via strong suction whereas others seem to pickup the baits in their lips, moving off slightly before actually taking the bait further into their mouths........(are these testing the baits ? i believe so) When trying to develop a rig in relation to the venue being fished, I believe in spending more time watching fish feed in the chosen venue than fishing. This will in my opinion, give more clues to efficient rig development than sitting behind the buzzers waiting for the reults to appear on the mat. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- joephus NMFF Regular Ah the ejection of rigs. I was reading an articale the other day which makes simple sense of what i have thought about the ejection and testing of rigs by carp. There not clever. I know it makes us feel better but there just not that clever. The level of inteligence to be able to distinguish different rigs and the appropriate method of ejecting them is far,far past a carp. Think he said he struggled to rememeber how to tie half of them so what chance does a carp have to learn them all, or even one!!!! Why do some fish get caught very few times under high pressure then? Conditionng to being fished for, with a constant state of alertness food will be eaten in a less ravinous way meaning there is less chance of hooking a carp. Hooking seems to me to be rather random! Hook gets sucked in and then is either blown out as the fish expels all the none edible bits or just falls out. It seems to have a lot to do with luck whether that hook point catches skin. There are ways to improve the hooking potential, baiting being one of the best. And small tweeks to rigs. The stiff rig when tied properally is one of the best in my opinion. Forr many reasons. The ultimate rig - the guy i refer to does not just catch big fish. Think he had 40 fish from the brooke in one year. Which is so far beyond anyone else he had to be doing something. The use of very expensive bait (ye it could make a differance) You said you couldnt change your rigs just cause of having money - what about the materials and even going to the hook sharpness. Just my opinions though. Take what you want from it. Link to Post - Back to Top 213.121.151.194 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- blue NMFF Regular 4 Mar, 2006, 12:31, joephus wrote: Hooking seems to me to be rather random! Hook gets sucked in and then is either blown out as the fish expels all the none edible bits or just falls out. It seems to have a lot to do with luck whether that hook point catches skin. There are ways to improve the hooking potential, baiting being one of the best. And small tweeks to rigs. . I totally agree with you there mate. Baiting does play a major part in the way we catch our beloved carp. A rig to suit the baiting situation will catch. As proved on the Korda vid's. The way those carp ignored the pop - up whilst pre occupied on the pellets was almost criminal Lee Jackson came out with a cracking comment about pop-up's. He said if you were eating a plate full of peas, but one was hovering an inch above the plate, would you eat it? Makes you think a bit... Listening to what's been said, and my personal opinion, i don't agree with Damien Clarke's comment about the ultimate rig. There's probably a fantastic rig for ultra shy, silty bottom feeding carp. A rig for gravel bottom, competitive shoal feeding carp, and a rig for educated, loan monsters. Either way, this knowledge keep's us all on a feet and thinking about our fishing doesn't it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gazza NMFF Super Poster 3 Mar, 2006, 23:32, Northern_Monkey wrote:who'd want to use a super rig anyway, it'd be called catching then, not fishing Couldn't agree with you more mate. To me carp fishing is all about applying the knowledge learnt over the years, and using it in all the various situations we find ourselves in. If a "super rig" was developed where would the reward be in landing that sought after fish if it was all down to a rig, and not weeks of planning, tearing your hair out, finally putting the pieces together, and the joy when it all comes right Link to Post - Back to Top 88.104.187.96 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- blue NMFF Regular Well said Gazza. Link to Post - Back to Top 80.47.52.237 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- stig NMFF Super Poster I agree with most of whats been said esp by Gazza however i feel its all down to confidence because if i use a rig that i have confidence in 9 times out of 10 it will catch .My belief is in simplicity i dont do any where near as much Carping as the rest of you but have found when my end tackle is dead basic it seems to work by not attaching lots of additional gear to the line works best for me and i may never catch that 30 or lots of 20s .I dont spend lots of dosh on rig equipment due to the fact i cant so i just keep it simple and i do all right i average 0-2 20s a year with a few doubles ,some tench and bream but im happy .As ive said in previous posts catching fish is a bonus 95% of it for me is just being out there and soaking up the atmosphere of a place like Top pool ,Redesmere or Booths mere .Seeing the wildlife havin a chat with those who know a lot more then i do , as they put in the time that i cant . Rigs i keep it as simple as possible « Last Edit: 5 Mar, 2006, 10:40 by stig » Link to Post - Back to Top 86.130.104.59 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Julian Administrator Great thread this, Totally agree with you Gazza – it’s the challenge that’s the buzz, for me at any rate. Phil, you’re bang on the money about strain types and the way this affects them picking up a bait. By sheer coincidence I had a two hour conversation on the phone last night with Big Ted about exactly that; how the different fish in TP act when sampling baits. I’ve witnessed the different body-types do completely different things when over bait – very interesting topic in its own right. Think Joe makes some good points too, especially the point that perhaps sometimes we give the fish a little too much credence. However, there are undoubtedly some waters where, for whatever reason, the fish have wised up immensely to the fact they are being angled for, the Top Pool in particular – these are some of the most crafty fish I’ve ever come across, and at times will have you tearing your hair out, however, on the right day they seem completely inept and you can have a shed load – all very strange. I think a lot comes down to the water clarity. At the end of the day it’s down to our ability as anglers to hoodwink the fish, and as has been said, if it was always a piece of cake we’d soon get board – I think they call that match fishing. As I’ve said before, for me it’s the journey not the end result, which is similar to what Stig is saying. The way we fish can be a very personal thing, and it’s about doing whatever makes you happy. I reckon too many people get wrapped up in tackle and searching for the holy grail of rigs – I’d much rather be searching for the fish! Link to Post - Back to Top 86.130.92.95 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gazza NMFF Super Poster 5 Mar, 2006, 9:23, Julian wrote: At the end of the day it’s down to our ability as anglers to hoodwink the fish, and as has been said, if it was always a piece of cake we’d soon get board – I think they call that match fishing. PMSL Link to Post - Back to Top 88.104.186.94 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- blue NMFF Regular 5 Mar, 2006, 9:23, Julian wrote:Phil, you’re bang on the money about strain types and the way this affects them picking up a bait. I’ve witnessed the different body-types do completely different things when over bait – very interesting topic in its own right. My observations of carp bottom feeding is somewhat limited as ive not very often put myself in the position to see the fish take my bottom bait. Im not really into stalking (fish that is ), however, i love floater fishing, which is kind of stalking in a way i suppose. What amazes me though is how different fish in different lakes surface feed. Which i suppose could apply to the way the fish bottom feed in the lake. Patshulls Church pools fish approach a surface bait like the classic jaws poster of the woman swimming, with the shark coming vertically up from underneath! You dont see the buggers, they then suck from about an inch below the surface, the chummies just dissapear! It could explain why its a tricky water if they bottom feed with such caution. Yet other carp on lakes ive fished, when you get 'em going on the top, they charge around half out the water to get the surface baits with little or no caution at all, Which could then reflect the way they bottom feed when pre occupied. Who knows. Phils cracking post about different strains feeding in different ways could explain why fish surface feed in their own way on certain waters. Certainly makes sense. Whilst on the subject of surafce fishing, just out of interest, did a floater controller called 'The Revolution' ever makes it's way up into the Northwest? It was a monsterous thing that my mates dad and i designed and even patented. It was basically a grey, egg shaped poly base, with a fibreglass arm coming out of it which your surface bait hung from. The main benfit being that there was no line on the water near your surface bait. Unfortunately it was like trying to cast a small crane into the lake And, as the essence of surface fishing is ideally a subtle approach, this wasn't!! The splash of the bohemouth landing was quite impressive It was about 1995 when we created the monster, just wonderd if any found their way north. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Baker Global Moderator Quote:It was a monsterous thing that my mates dad and i designed and even patented. It was basically a grey, egg shaped poly base, with a fibreglass arm coming out of it which your surface bait hung from. Ahhh so your the creator of 'The egg.' Seen it a couple of times but not used it myself. I think i'll stick to a freelined chum mixer or a controller setup. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil highlander Global Moderator i knew it as a crane and have had some wicked takes on them........ ive still got two............love em for fishing up to snags to the surface
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07-03-2006, 08:11 AM
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over xmas i had a few ideas for "the ultimate rig" tied a couple tried a couple on a local runs water first run it bounced the hook second run hook pulled they got binned after that back to the drawing board!if it aint broke dont fix it lol
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07-03-2006, 06:04 PM
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No matter how good a rig is surely it's the bait and application of it that tempts the fish into taking a look.
An angler using the ultimate bait, one that a fish couldn't resist, would win every time over the angler with the ultimate rig.
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07-03-2006, 08:37 PM
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 Whats plays the more dominant part in the whole efficient capture of a carp? Would a person who's bait is spot on, but who's rigs are shoddy not capture as many carp as the person with an efficient rig but poor bait. Bait or rigs? Obviously it's both of these aspects, but what im trying to decide is if i agree with the quote above, would the angler with the ultimate bait 'win' over the angler with the ultimate rig? Im inclined to disagree, i think over time, an efficient rig would help land more carp than a superiour bait. Due to a carps inquisitive nature, most baits will catch, but if your 'ultimate bait' is attatched to a poor rig, i think you'll miss more pick up's in the long run. Good quote anyway Kevw, got me thinking. 
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07-03-2006, 08:48 PM
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I totally agree with you there Phil and i nearly said it myself, but all i was trying to do was reply to what Kev had said. There's potentially a lot more aspects aswell, weather, water clarity, carp stock, angler pressure, other species........ it goes on!
But if it was just a question of bait or rigs....
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King Jeremy the Wicked..
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07-03-2006, 09:48 PM
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When youve had the carp feeding for weeks on a bait in the same areas you'l catch them without a hook on
 location and bait aplication to me are far more important than a rig as long as the basic dynamics are sound, the bait is of a good quality and there are no piggybackers the worlds your oyster 
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07-03-2006, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Still reckon bait is more important than the rig but it does make you realise how much you need to get right to catch them, bait, rigs, location, weather, etc. etc. Good to get us all thinking though
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21-06-2007, 10:17 AM
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Ultimate Rig
Cant see it myself and would that Ultimate Rig work on Sand, Gravel, Silt, Chod, Weed or would we need 1 for each situation we are in at the time. I think its more a punt for Rig components etc that are probably getting ready to be launched under the Banner of ULTIMATE RIG COMPONENTS! IMHO its down to Location, Bait, Conditions at the time, Size of Fish, Make up of the Lakebed etc then put all this together and tie a rig using the components we all carry in our boxes.
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21-06-2007, 10:27 AM
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Putting aside that the fact there is NO ultimate rig NOR ultimate bait , still i would always have to go for location ,location , location , as stated in other threads carp will pick anything up if they want to investigate {no hands ?}, food or not ..... so aslong as you have a basic rig and sumthing to interest the carp ..{not just bait , look at the plastic fantastic} it will pick up your rig ....
smokey
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21-06-2007, 10:29 AM
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21-06-2007, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
 smokey
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2008 - 40lb + MISSION IS ABOUT TO BEGIN ..... http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ean/?start=all
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22-06-2007, 02:55 PM
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you are all missing a perfect rig and millions are using it this is how it works you thread your line through your rod add a thing called a float plumb the depth and hey presto the ultimate rig ask any match man before you all shout me down ask your self if you are in casting range why are you not float fishing the real truth is we cant be bothered myself included
if we had to fish float only i guarentee time wise we would catch more ten fold fact remember we like to chill carping whilst match go to catch so they are more focussed
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15-07-2007, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
 But i learnt from my dad R.I.P Charley J (my dad)remeber me old man take me around carr mill walking for hours till he was settled and say come on son set up the rods |
