enzymes in baits.

[incognito]

Originally Posted by netbustercarp

what about pre digested fishmeal?this must be treated with some kind of enzyme?i know a mate of mine who is into body building.he says the best thing to have after a meal is fresh pineapple juice which is full of digestive enzymes apparantly.so he can absorb more of the protein from his food.

that must be why pineapple boilies work so well

[netbustercarp]

Originally Posted by incognito

that must be why pineapple boilies work so well

lol maybe!but fresh pineapple juice is full of digestive enzymes.

[netbustercarp]

what about bengers?This is a wheat derived product that has been around for a number of years. Bengers figured highly in many of the early enzyme baits. It is rich in the enzymes amylase and trypsin and when used with milk proteins gives a superb, easy to roll bait.so this trypsin stuff must work.

[saul]

Originally Posted by Deano

It might be good bait Kev but it wont be due to the enzymes...lol...they do another identical bait called moonfruit I think thats exactly the same minus the enzymes which is a firmer bait.You never know they might have some 'useful' enzymes in the bait but thats what I want to know as my mind is still open!!....

Deano

I don't think Pete will ever give up his secret

I've been using the Enzyme for two years and had some very good results, also used the Moonfruit and other variations but the Enzyme does do some funky stuff which the others do not, I'm no scientist, just an angler wanting to use the best bait I can get my hands on and so far I'm very happy with it

Cheers
Saul

[Deano]

Originally Posted by netbustercarp

what about pre digested fishmeal?this must be treated with some kind of enzyme?i know a mate of mine who is into body building.he says the best thing to have after a meal is fresh pineapple juice which is full of digestive enzymes apparantly.so he can absorb more of the protein from his food.

Ooh its going to be another good night on the NM's.Firstly pre digested fishmeal.A good ingredient with hard scientific facts to back it up.Enzymatically digested probably at the optimum temperature and pH ranges.This will yield many free amino acids, the building blocks of protein.The benefits will be clear to see more free amino's means a higher biological value for mr carp as he doesnt need to employ his own enzymes in order to absorb the free aminos which are essential to his well being. REMEMBER though this enzyme activity has taken place before the ingredient has been incorporated into a finished bait and therefore will not be affected by any further exposure to high temperatures and so its a viable and useful process

Originally Posted by netbustercarp

what about bengers?This is a wheat derived product that has been around for a number of years. Bengers figured highly in many of the early enzyme baits. It is rich in the enzymes amylase and trypsin and when used with milk proteins gives a superb, easy to roll bait.so this trypsin stuff must work.

Bengers not something I know a lot about again the enzymes both proteases (trypsin)and starch acting enzymes(amylase).It will maybe yeild some free aminos and a higher sugar content in a bait if applied before boiling.The optimum temperature of this plant derived enzyme(s) is probably lower and maybe useful. However upon boiling some of the effectiveness is going to be lost.Would have to study the specifics of the enzyme to comment any further

Originally Posted by saul

Deano

I don't think Pete will ever give up his secret

I've been using the Enzyme for two years and had some very good results, also used the Moonfruit and other variations but the Enzyme does do some funky stuff which the others do not, I'm no scientist, just an angler wanting to use the best bait I can get my hands on and so far I'm very happy with it

Cheers
Saul

I appreciate what you say Saul and obviously no bait company is going to give any secrets away to its competitors.However a simple response maybe stating the use of temperature stable enzymes or low temperature enzymes might just convince me.This would not give too much away as theres probably a million and one known enzymes to sift through before you find the right one!!... I would think that free amino yeilds etc would maybe just be as high due to
A)the cooking/boiling process oxidising the peptide bonds within a protein bait
B) the natural degradation of a bait whilst immersed in lake water due to the bacteria already present within the water.

I wonder if we will get a reply off Pete tonight....

[carp2bait@yahoo.co.uk]

My my,you lot have been busy.......

Pete was contacted last nite and as he was not a member of this forum he has had to register,so untill such time as he recieves his confirmation from whom ever?You will have to continue to play amoungst yourselves and continue speculating

Oh,and Deano,pre-digested fishmeal is not the way to go matey

Regards,Dean

[Deano]

Originally Posted by carp2bait@yahoo.co.uk

My my,you lot have been busy.......

Pete was contacted last nite and as he was not a member of this forum he has had to register,so untill such time as he recieves his confirmation from whom ever?You will have to continue to play amoungst yourselves and continue speculating

Oh,and Deano,pre-digested fishmeal is not the way to go matey

Regards,Dean

Sounds like a cop out to me..lol.......hard facts maybe you could regurgitate some of the gumpff you gave out at the show...as this was a public address of the actual biochemisty of your enzyme bait Remember its hard facts that are needed. I never said predigested fishmeals were the way to go BUT scientifically they stand up to scrutiny which is a little more than you've proffered me at the minute Never used pre digested fishmeals in my bait but have used baits that do contain them as in theory they are useful.I do ok on LT94 and just let nature and the boiling process do the rest

PS not been busy really its all upstairs!! haven't consulted a text book once..maybe I will have to brush up a little though later!!!...

[netbustercarp]

blimey deano are you a biology teacher or something lol.what about pepsin?

[Deano]

Originally Posted by netbustercarp

blimey deano are you a biology teacher or something lol.what about pepsin?

Done that mate not for me.... pepsin another protease found in mammals acts in the small intestine along with erypsin..theres loads this could go on all day.Some enzymes get made in an inactive form and are then activated by pH's in the stomach and intestines its all amazing stuff...

[carp2bait@yahoo.co.uk]

Amazing stuff indeed it is and its by no means an easy subject to understand

First and foremost,before even considering what enzymes are needed and probably the most crucial factor of all is making sure you use the correct ingredients........

The type of fishmeal you use,together with its interaction with other selected ingredients is a crucial factor.You must provide the correct amino profile within your base and address the F.L.A.A (First limiting amino acids) before even contemplating which enzymes are required to break down specific bonds,whilst at the same time taking into account other variables such as enzyme stability and temperature tolerances at any given stage in the bait making proccess......

This in itself can pose numerous headaches in providing a "sorted basemix" worthy of enzyme addition

Regards,Dean

[carp2bait@yahoo.co.uk]

slippery elm was made to aid the digestion of milk proteins in humans,how this aids digestion in a carp that has no stomach and has any benefit to the carp where fishmeals are used is a new one to me???? Could you explain to me how it works please?

[Pete_B]

Interesting.....

Slippery Elm is of less use than Bromelaine in terms of carp bait... I am unsure what you want Deano... I use 4 enzymes, each with a specific bond in mind.... two are denatured at 35 degrees (inactivated by the boiling process) which is what I want, two remain as they are stable at relatively high temperatures. Mamallian enzymes cannot be used in active enzyme baits, except in paste form and even then the useable life of the bait is severely compromised.

The action of enzymes/bacteria in the lake is far slower... I do not want to have to wait for my baits to become effective.... besides, the proteins in use in carp baits (theoretically, any way) are not that suited to the enzymes present... Unless, of course, you know different...

The enzymes I use are fairly pH specific (all are to some degree) and also temperature dependent (in summer, without due care, the bait can become fairly unuseable, very quickly) As someone stated, the chances of me detailing what I do in depth is fairly remote...

Until fairly recently I was FD at a fairly large Pharmaceutical company which allowed, and still does, access to a few friends I made along the way.... some of those funky enzymes you allude to are really quite good.. after boiling you need to look for those that are not susceptible to denaturing below 80 degrees and perform in temperatures between 15 and 25 degrees.. and they need to be most active at around pH 6.5 so you can limit their effect... a narrow pH range is a distinct advantage here...

Pre-digested fishmeal.... useful to a limited degree.... amino signals BUT... the right ones???? get a basemix, sort out first and possibly second limiting amino, then break it down.... does that sound about right????

Happy Carping
Pete

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Pete_B

Interesting.....

Slippery Elm is of less use than Bromelaine in terms of carp bait... I am unsure what you want Deano... I use 4 enzymes, each with a specific bond in mind.... two are denatured at 35 degrees (inactivated by the boiling process) which is what I want, two remain as they are stable at relatively high temperatures. Mamallian enzymes cannot be used in active enzyme baits, except in paste form and even then the useable life of the bait is severely compromised.

The action of enzymes/bacteria in the lake is far slower... I do not want to have to wait for my baits to become effective.... besides, the proteins in use in carp baits (theoretically, any way) are not that suited to the enzymes present... Unless, of course, you know different...

The enzymes I use are fairly pH specific (all are to some degree) and also temperature dependent (in summer, without due care, the bait can become fairly unuseable, very quickly) As someone stated, the chances of me detailing what I do in depth is fairly remote...

Until fairly recently I was FD at a fairly large Pharmaceutical company which allowed, and still does, access to a few friends I made along the way.... some of those funky enzymes you allude to are really quite good.. after boiling you need to look for those that are not susceptible to denaturing below 80 degrees and perform in temperatures between 15 and 25 degrees.. and they need to be most active at around pH 6.5 so you can limit their effect... a narrow pH range is a distinct advantage here...

Pre-digested fishmeal.... useful to a limited degree.... amino signals BUT... the right ones???? get a basemix, sort out first and possibly second limiting amino, then break it down.... does that sound about right????

Happy Carping
Pete

Firstly thanks for the reply It all seems pretty credible and without sounding too derogatory you have done your homework.Just one thing baffles me though why put an enzyme into a mix only to denature it and render it useless after boiling The only thing I can think of here is that once rolled this must be an enzyme(s) that will work immediately and perform a given task before rolling and boiling so would maybe require some sort of incubation period or does it work that quick(mind you 20 minutes in the right conditions could be enough)
As for the natural bacteria not breaking down a baits proteins/lipids/sugars I would be very doubtful that the correct enzymes are not present.There must be 1000's of enzymes present in water borne microbes and as you probably know they are very resourceful organisms. Microbes can adapt (mutate very quickly) and utilise almost any given substrate theres microbes that can break down most things.
Again interesting, just PM me the enzyme specifics and I'll get a batch in...
Cheers
Dean

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Deano

Nice try...I wonder what website you clutched that little lot from...lol.... Your little repost my friend has one glaring error its concerning MAMMALIAN enzymes with a working range of probably 20-40 degrees celsius.Now consider the situation boiled baits.Immersed in boiling water for between say 1 and 3 minutes slight problem denatured proteins.The tertiary structure of the enzymes and thus its active site will no longer be useful as the substrate wont fit into the correct place!! Your baits pH will need to be tinkered a little as well in order for the enzyme to work at its optimum.I dare say not all of the enzymes molecules will become denatured but then again consider the next scenario.Boilie sitting on the lake bed temperature ranges between 4 and say 10 degrees celsius optimum working temperature range 20 -40 degrees C slight problem. Plot the Michealis Menton graph and you will probably see a flat line indicating not the most active enzymatic degradation I have ever seen!! Its no good using mammalian enzymes in carp baits they wont work.
The pursuit of enzymes and their application in carp baits has been pursued for some years with less than staggering results the Nutrabaits users even binned their Addit range and I am surprised you can still get them. Now if you really want to pursue enzymes in bait I suggest you find some 'novel' enzymes with either temperature stability or lower optimum ranges. Forget mammalian enzymes and spend some money(which the bait companies probably havent got) and start a screening programme of the bacterias thats where you will find your enzymes.Theres probably enzymes that fit the bill already but ask a biotechnology giant to either synthesise or purify these enzymes for the relatively small carp baits market and you will probably get laughed at I am afraid.If it was for a pharmaceutical product the case would be a different matter as global revenue will probably be in the millions but not for carp baits sorry. If any bodies doing a phD they might just let you conduct a study into in 'The viabilty and merits of adding enzymes into nutritional carp baits using temperature stable enzymes or enzymes with low optimum ranges'. There you go now you have the title you just need to find the funding and the student...sorry I can't oblige I have already spent too much time dossing about and playing in labs

a couple more of these posts mate and we might be giving to much away

[saul]

Pete

You make it sound so simple
It hurts less if I try not to think about it

Cheers
Saul