[Wingman]

Use as many or as few tigers as you need. All this BS about only needing a handful If the fish respond well to 5k of tigers then use 5k. If a single does the business use a single

[oliver reed]

Originally Posted by Wingman

Use as many or as few tigers as you need. All this BS about only needing a handful If the fish respond well to 5k of tigers then use 5k. If a single does the business use a single

I think any self respecting angler thse days would avoild using tigers en mass a la 'good old' days when they were turfed into lakes by the bucket full. It wasn't so common knowledge back then, but is now that nutritional value of nuts to fish is pretty poor and results in bad health for the fish, both in terms of weight loss due to lack of nutritious absorption and also vent damage from excessive er, roughage.

Therefore when folk recommend using only a handful, its for a reason. You can get better results using a handful of tigers and a bulk of hemp or chopped tiger/hemp combined than you would with 10kg of growlers anyway.

But then again, not everyone has their priorities in the right order eh...

[Wingman]

I agree with you about tigers in a nutritional sense. They do contain some fatty acids and minerals which are an essential part of a carps diet but otherwise are fairly useless nutritionally (which is why I believe they generally blow quite quickly)
As for your argument that they can cause health damage due to a lack of nutritious absorption, again I agree, only in situations however where tigers make up the greater percentage of a carps diet. I would also like to point out that just about any popular carp bait you can think of : sweetcorn, pellet and of course boilie would present similar problems to a carp if it became the fishes primary foodsource over an extended period of time. Even the best HNV baits do not provide all the nutritional requirements necessary for healthy fish.

As for vent damage I would suggest that this is highly unlikely if using properly prepared tigers. I would go further and also suggest that if I am wrong and tigers do cause vent damage then surely this could just as easily occur with a handful of tigers as it could with 50 handfuls. I would also like to point out that carp in certain waters gorge themselves on snails and sometimes crays. Their vents don’t seem to suffer from a large proportion of sharp shell fragments passing through. Even the odd rock sometimes slides through.

Tigers have a bad reputation from a time when they were totally abused as a bait leading to some necessary and many unnecessary bans.

I don't use tigers often and when I do its generally with bags as I've been fishing for a take. I have used them in larger amounts though and caught a few in one sitting. None of the fish caught in those circumstances suffered any ill effects from being caught in that manner.

If I became aware that any method I was adopting to catch fish was having detrimental effects on my quarry I would cease using said method immediately as my priorities are most definitely in order Ollie

Have a glass on me fella

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Wingman

I. Even the best HNV baits do not provide all the nutritional requirements necessary for healthy fish.

I think theres probably quite a few bait makers that would disagree with that statement Wingman

[Wingman]

Ahh yes. These of course being the same baitmakers that would have you believe that many of them don't bulk out their mixes with sawdust or sand
The baitmakers who are running a business whereby they want to squeeze the maximum amount from the angler for minimum cost to themselves.

[oliver reed]

Originally Posted by Wingman

I agree with you about tigers in a nutritional sense. They do contain some fatty acids and minerals which are an essential part of a carps diet but otherwise are fairly useless nutritionally (which is why I believe they generally blow quite quickly)
As for your argument that they can cause health damage due to a lack of nutritious absorption, again I agree, only in situations however where tigers make up the greater percentage of a carps diet. I would also like to point out that just about any popular carp bait you can think of : sweetcorn, pellet and of course boilie would present similar problems to a carp if it became the fishes primary foodsource over an extended period of time. Even the best HNV baits do not provide all the nutritional requirements necessary for healthy fish.

As for vent damage I would suggest that this is highly unlikely if using properly prepared tigers. I would go further and also suggest that if I am wrong and tigers do cause vent damage then surely this could just as easily occur with a handful of tigers as it could with 50 handfuls. I would also like to point out that carp in certain waters gorge themselves on snails and sometimes crays. Their vents don’t seem to suffer from a large proportion of sharp shell fragments passing through. Even the odd rock sometimes slides through.

Tigers have a bad reputation from a time when they were totally abused as a bait leading to some necessary and many unnecessary bans.

I don't use tigers often and when I do its generally with bags as I've been fishing for a take. I have used them in larger amounts though and caught a few in one sitting. None of the fish caught in those circumstances suffered any ill effects from being caught in that manner.

If I became aware that any method I was adopting to catch fish was having detrimental effects on my quarry I would cease using said method immediately as my priorities are most definitely in order Ollie

Have a glass on me fella

Fair response fella, have often wondered seeing that you've brought up crays and snails about something Hutchinson mentioned in one of his books (?) about witnessing carp eating large swan mussels and actually excreting the entireshell intact, minus the inner parts. He mentions that they were passing shells through so large it was causing bleeding, alls I can think of is they must really like mussels to put up with the proverbial ring sting, probably like fellas obsessed with vindaloo...

In respect of this though I would prefer not to present baits that would cause similar circumstances, even properly prepped tigers are still hard and although nine or ten passed out may cause some possible damage, several kilos going through the exhaust would more than likely end up with more detriment.

I just see large amounts as bad due to the aforementioned points but also that as the carp gorge on them they will move about the water shhhitting them out in a similar state as they went in, which results in them more than likely being picked up by other fish, thus the sequence repeats itself. In todays world its like you say probably not going to cause a mass weight loss as witnessed when tigers were fished heavily by a majority to cause serious weight loss/nutritional deficiency, but on some waters where nobody baits heavily with a 'food' source it could just have a poor effect on fish health if enough nuts went in.

Thankfully for the fish's sake tigers don't seem to be as 'fashionable' to use as they once were. Its down to the individual to determine the amount they use which hopefully reflects on their general awareness of the baits qualities and non qualities.

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Wingman

Ahh yes. These of course being the same baitmakers that would have you believe that many of them don't bulk out their mixes with sawdust or sand
The baitmakers who are running a business whereby they want to squeeze the maximum amount from the angler for minimum cost to themselves.

I have dabbled in making bait and have bait makers that I have spoken to in depth and I am whole heartedly of the belief that boilies can be made into a complete food source for carp, you're probably using the wrong bait...

I dont argue with science and carp/koi can be reared in stock ponds that dont have much in the way of natural food and attain decent weights.Often these fish are only fed plant derived products and maybe some pellets, reaching double figures in a couple of years

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Wingman

Ahh yes. These of course being the same baitmakers that would have you believe that many of them don't bulk out their mixes with sawdust or sand

sawdust just maybe but you are probably showing your inexperience of bait making by saying sand...ever tried making a ball out of sand

[netbustercarp]

sawdust or sand? never heard that 1 before,and as for the hnv thing,carp can recognise the value of a good food source,so the better ingredients you use in your bait,the more chance the carp wil;l eat it time and time again

[netbustercarp]

never done that well on tigers,boilies all the way!

[Wingman]

Originally Posted by Deano

I have dabbled in making bait and have bait makers that I have spoken to in depth and I am whole heartedly of the belief that boilies can be made into a complete food source for carp, you're probably using the wrong bait...

I dont argue with science and carp/koi can be reared in stock ponds that dont have much in the way of natural food and attain decent weights.Often these fish are only fed plant derived products and maybe some pellets, reaching double figures in a couple of years

I too have toyed with making bait in the past and have done a little research into what the carps nutritional requirements actually are. This research has lead me to the conclusion that it is totally possible to create a base mix which on paper is a complete food source. The list of ingredients and additives is fairly long though!! My argument is that many of these ingredients contain inhibitors and antinutrients which affect the overall nutritional value of a finished bait. Couple this with the effect that boiling has on the molecular structure of some of the ingredients and I am fairly certain that the finished article will be found lacking in some areas

As for using the wrong bait, well I certainly hope so. I would love to see what I could actually catch if I found the right bait

With regards to fish-rearing I don't think it really has a place in this discussion. Unless of course you are aware of a fishfarmer who fills his stock pools in with 18 milli's

Oh yes, nearly forgot. Fine sand is used in bait production. You will find it quite easy to roll at 10% or less of a base mix. Excellent as a cheap way of adding weight to baits. Good for use with a throwing stick. Even better for selling in kilo bags on a large scale

[Dave no fish]

This is a argument that can`t be won (personal opinions)
Are tiger nut dangerous probally not (unless the fish eats nothing else)
they are definatley not as harmful as some pellets though,
and lord knows what goes in some boilie mixes,
You think that creamy smell`s actual cream, more like antifreeze,or nail varnish remover for your banana,
Not even got to dyes, eggs, oils, salts,curry,chilli the list is endless
(but all not on the carps natural menu)
We had a delema back in the 80`s peanuts , a few "in the know muppets"
stated they harmed fish "never stated that the said fish were in a tank and fed nothing else".
and this is where personal predjucies comes in,
The fish are quite intelligent on bait issues
and after a certain amount of time just plain refused nuts,
"sick of them" yes fish were still catchable but less than 1 a visit.
In test we did on caepesthorn main lake in the 80`s, peanuts went well
for a few months,then boilies(milk based) then meat based,and fish based around spring.
Never getting preoccupied for long on 1 bait (though many regulars fished the same bait all year)There catch records were always on a diminishing scale.
Whilst ours stayed the same, and with the start of the amino fad we then caught more than ever .I beleive because breaking the bait down with certain amino acids,leaves less work for the fish`s digestive system,so the fish grew bigger,because of the extra enegy,which intern allowed them to feed more,and be afraid less of predators,and so on.
but if tigers or peanuts were used they now never lasted more than 1 session
So as i say (the fish are intelligent and know whats good for them)
IN MY OPINION

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Wingman

IWith regards to fish-rearing I don't think it really has a place in this discussion. Unless of course you are aware of a fishfarmer who fills his stock pools in with 18 milli's

I think its quite relevant as proper in the know bait makers get all their scientific data from the koi and fish rearing agencies.Your point about feeding 18mm ers is flawed as its quite possible to produce pellet or provide suitable feedstuffs for young fish using the exact same principles as making nuisance fish resilient boilies

Young fish are fed suitable feedstuffs eg water fleas until this no longer becomes viable and they are able to be fed larger items of food.Its this suitable sized food item or the lack of that results in the low level of juvenille recruitment in carp, or at least its a major factor

PS what bait do you use or is it all watercraft that makes you a legend...

[Wizard]

film canister
fill with tiger nut juice
with bait attached to the hair put hook in the canister
freeze
take a dozen already made up with you in thermos flask
take 1 out attach to swivel
cast out
hey presto

better in the warmer months

[stotty]

Originally Posted by Wizard

film canister
fill with tiger nut juice
with bait attached to the hair put hook in the canister
freeze
take a dozen already made up with you in thermos flask
take 1 out attach to swivel
cast out
hey presto

better in the warmer months

great idea, defo gunna try that trick, i suppose you can add all sorts of baits into the juice just to give it that little bit more kick, i.e boilie crumb, hemp seed etc